Episode #150: Cherish Families: Helping Those Caught In Abuse W/Shirlee Draper From Cherish Families

0:01 So I've had the opportunity to meet many families in Mormon fundamentalism, and the vast, vast majority of those families are beautiful, well adjusted, loving families. But I won't deny that just like in monogamous marriages, abuse does happen, and when it does, women and children need help. However, not all organizations that offer that help are created equal. This was never more on display than during the days of the wicked priest tyrant Warren Jeffs as folks reached out for help to get away from him. There were organizations all too eager to help but would do so with strings attached. Like putting a camera in the survivors faces and profiting off their pain for reality TV ratings and then berating the some of the survivors religious beliefs. However, there is one organization that I feel is doing it right and that's Cherish Families. Cherished Families was founded and is largely staffed by people from polygamous backgrounds, both practicing and non practicing.

0:52 With their deep understanding of the fears and barriers that people from our faith community can experience. They are compassionate, empathetic, and uniquely qualified to serve the Mormon fundamentalist community. All without profiting off of the survivors pain or forcing them to denounce their religious beliefs. Today I have on Shirley Draper from Cherish Families and we have a discussion about how the organization was founded, how they seek to fulfill their mission, and what you can do to help if you feel so inclined. That and more on this episode of the Mormon Renegade podcast. So a few weeks back I told you about a new online merch store I was putting together and that I would let you know as soon as that was up and running. Well, after a few weeks of working on designs and testing it out personally, we're ready to launch.

1:35 So if you go to. Mormonrenegade.com and click on the Renegade supply button in the top right of the landing page or click the link in this episode show notes. You'll see that we have 16 items right now that you can choose from. We have shirts, hats, bags, cups, and water bottles all with the Mormon Renegade logo, as well as a couple other designs that I think you'll find really funny, and maybe even one where I take a slight shot at BYU. But you should definitely go check that out. Now this is just the beginning. In the coming weeks, more designs and styles will be available for purchase. Now. All the proceeds I get from this are going to go right back into the podcast, so head on over to mormonrenegade.com and press the Renegade supply button or click the link in this episode show notes and get yours today.

2:48 You're listening to the Mormon Renegade podcast. Shirley, thanks for coming on. Thank you for having me. I got to tell you, I I was told about cherished families, your organization from a good friend, Joshua Erickson. So shout out to him. But he was like you, you've got to get them on. I'm like, OK, all right. And so reached out and you guys were super accommodating. So I'm just, I'm happy that you're here and talking to me. I'm glad that our schedules finally aligned. Oh, it's, it's OK. You know what? That stuff happens quite a bit. It's it's all good.

3:31 So, Shirley, real quick, what is cherished families? What, what is it? What's What's this organization about? We are a social service nonprofit and we provide really any kind of social service that people from fundamentalist backgrounds might need. And that's a lot. I mean, I'll talk about all the different programs, but basically for people who like me, you know, came out of a community that was really close to society and didn't have access to, to various services, we, we try to provide those in a really culturally sensitive way. Most of us who are with the organization actually came from fundamentalist backgrounds. So we are culturally sensitive by default. You know, we understand what somebody's fears and barriers might be to, to access these services. So our biggest grant is a crime victims, a federal department, It's a Department of Justice crime victims grant. So the bulk of your funding comes from the the that grant for survivors of crime?

4:39 Is that what I'm understanding? So it's, it's not the bulk of our funding, but it is our largest grant. And so, so if it forms amount maybe about, oh, a third of our, of our funding. And it is a crime victim funding. So we are able to provide crime victim services to anyone from a fundamentalist background that safety plans is helping them report crimes if they want, helping them have get access to justice, like going to court or even, you know, moving away if they need a protective order, anything like that. So and so, and it also provides a really unique, you know, thing for most of us from fundamentalists. Of course, we grew up knowing that we should be afraid of government and law enforcement.

5:24 And so when I was growing up, we never would have reported a crime, but we're trying to create a place of safety where people can report crimes and know that they will be respected and, and won't be blamed for the crimes that were committed on them. So that's, that's a big part of our funding. Another, another service we provide is family peer support. So anybody who needs to access any other systems, education, housing, the the economic system, how to get a bank account, those kinds of things. We have a peer support who can, who has had similar lived experience and, and can help people access and navigate all of these different systems that they need to become stable and, and really participate fully in society.

6:08 We also do a lot, we do a lot of mental health services. We do housing, we do a lot of community education. We have a food bank and A food pantry. So, you know, there's, there's almost anything you can think of. We interface with all kinds of educational systems to help people get into education, get the kind of, you know, schooling that they want help. We help people navigate employment, hospital systems, all just pretty much anything anybody might need coming from our background. Holy cow. So when? When, when, how was this started? I mean, when was this started? What was the impetus behind this this?

6:49 Is a really interesting story. So when I left the FLDS in 2004, there really wasn't a wasn't an organization that I could go to and trust to help me leave and I had 4 little kids and two of them are special needs. And so, you know, it took me 6 years between 1998 and 2000 or to actually get the resources I need to make that right to leave the FLDS group under Warren Jeffs. So I, I realized that that there was going to be something was needed to, to stand in that gap and people started showing up at my door and asking for help and staying on my couch while I tried to find them existing resources. So, and I'm looking around, there were a couple of organizations that did exist out back then, but they were really anti polygamy organizations.

7:41 They were, their stated goal was to rescue people from their religion. There was a lot of pathology, a lot of a lot of pathology based services. It's like you're bad and wrong and we're going to make you over in our image and make you good and right. And then you'll worship our God and not your God. And, and then there was a lot of exploitation. So if people called those organizations, they would end up on TV having to talk about how evil their family and community was in order for them to be worthy of services. And I would just look at that and get horrified because I knew that that was making it worse. And I also wouldn't access those services because I was not willing to demonize my family and my community. And so I'm like, this has to be different. We have to provide services that are appropriate, that are, you know, strengths based, that offer people choices instead of telling them what they have to do Because, you know, in my situation, yeah, Warren Jeffs isn't telling me what to do anymore.

8:34 But now you're going to. And somehow this is better. So. So I started going to school to get my to my bachelor's social work. And then I heard about some work that the Darger family was doing, Joe Darger and his wife's and, and they said, look, we heard you want to do this work. Here's here's what we think, here's our philosophy around. And I'm like, finally, finally somebody who's philosophy I can align with. And that really is about, you know, empowering people to make their own choices and, and not forcing anybody to choose one way or the other. And so and so Alina Darker and I started to work together in 20 around 20/13/2014.

9:21 The the bit cherished families was incorporated and got our 5O1C3 January of 2014. And then we were working on a volunteer basis until we got our first grant I think in 2015, which allowed her to pay me $500 a month. That was my, it was named Big McDonald's. And then in 2016 we got our first crime victim grant and we just, we just mushroomed from there. So now we have, I want to say 22 employees across the state. Our budget is, well, I think this year it's north of $4 million and we've served people in Canada and Mexico and 17 states. So we're really all over North America holy. Cow.

10:06 It's big. We have a clinical department, we have, we have locations in northern and southern Utah and our advocates are mobile. So we drive to where people are. It's, it's, it's a big operation. But I, I really like what we do because I am, I'm kind of the opposite. You know, Lena is, is a fundamentalist and she's, you know, very much involved in her family and her religion. And I am the opposite, right? I, I gave it all up. I don't believe in anything, but we both align on the fact that adults have to be given the chance and the choice to choose their religion and the way they live. And for me, I just want them to have all of the tools to make the very best decisions for themselves. And we are not invested in what that decision is. That's entirely up to them.

10:52 And so if I have a woman who's like, I love being a plural wife, I want to go back to my plural family. I'm like, Grant, what do you need to to have that happen? And if I have a woman that says I need to leave, I'm being abused in this, in this situation, I say, Grant, what resources do you wish you had? I am. I am not invested in someone's choices. I'm only invested and they have the outcomes that they want. I, I think that's huge, right? Because look, Mormonism free agent, like there's two things that are really essential to Mormonism. 1 is, is the idea of the family. The other is free agency, right? And a lot of times I would imagine, you know, I don't, I don't do your kind of work.

11:40 So it would I, I won't pretend to speak from experience, but I think by the time someone realizes, oh, this isn't really what I want and I'm I don't want to be here anymore. That to come out of that. And like you were saying, go into some of those other organizations that are going to throw your face on TV and we're going to to strip you of what you believe and and remake you in our image. That's not necessarily agency either. No, it's not. And so it's exploitation. Yeah, it's exploitation. And So what what I find so fascinating and so awesome about about what you and Alina have done here is that you've given the power back to the individual to make their choices. And that's huge, right?

12:27 Certainly. I love my way of life. I love being a Mormon fundamentalist, but I'm also not dumb, meaning that I know that this isn't for everybody, right? And, and I don't think anyone should be forced into this. Likewise, I don't think anyone should be forced to give it up if they don't want to, right? I'm just, I'm kind of like down the center. Just you do you, bro. We may not be able to hug it out on Saturdays, but we can, I mean, Sundays, but we can slap high fives on Saturday, right? Absolutely. And so I, I, I, I, I find that very fascinating as you're starting all this. What what are what were some of the biggest challenges you faced in the early days? And then what are some of the bigger challenges you face today?

13:09 So very early on, in fact, before, before we even had an organization to do anything with, I was doing, you know, work with organizations. It's like, Hey, I know you have housing for, for a woman that's fleeing abuse. And so I'd go and I would try to work with organizations that did exist. And, and so much of the time, the, the bulk of my time was spent trying to help them understand that somebody coming from these communities are actual human beings and they're worthy of dignity and services. Because there was so much stigma out there. And it's just, you know, the assumption was you're stupid, you're bad, you're guilty of every crime we've ever heard of come from there. And and so, you know, when you have when you have underserved and stigmatized populations, everything that gets assigned to those is everybody in them is, is defined by that, right? And so even still in the news, you'll see, you know, a fundamentalist did whatever drove drunk and ran off the road.

14:11 You'll see in the comments, they all do that. And if they said that about, you know, somebody in Saint George did that, if somebody got on the comments and said, well, everybody in Saint George does that, they would get piled on and be like, that's not true, but it's, it's upheld and it's okay when you're talking about stigmatized populations. And so for me, you know, I would, I experienced this, I would go to the doctor for something and they would, the doctor would make me justify my very existence and why I needed services because you polygamists think this, this and this. And so it's, it's such a huge barrier. And so for me, again, the, the biggest part of my time initially was spent just trying to humanize the individuals that would come and ask for services. And so now, you know, that became a huge part of what we do is cultural sensitivity training for, you know, we do it for the state now, we do it for the Department of Health and Human Services.

15:04 We do it for hospitals because it just, there's so much built up there. And it's been what, 185 years of this, of this pathology narrative that we have to take down brick by brick for people so that they can so that they can stop seeing someone who's a polygamist and have all of that previous idea heaped on that individual. And we have to be able to say, you need to separate that. I don't care what your, what your position on polygamy is. You need to know that this human being is not guilty of everything that you think you know. Right, right. And is that still the challenge today? Is that one of the bigger challenges you think people face today as well? It's not as bad it's been actually.

15:45 We've we've had, we've made some great strides in this. We're able to, you know, work with universities as they're as they're educating their doctors and their P as that. I get to come in and talk to the students and say, you know, part of trauma informed care, part of cultural sensitivity is understanding that there's all these myths around this population that you need to be able to just lay on the shelf when you walk in that door. And, and so we're starting to get some amazing traction that way in the court systems in, you know, in various places. It's an ongoing thing and, and people are accessing, you know, accessing the trainings and I think we're getting a lot better outcomes, but it's not something that, you know, we did it once and now, now we can walk away because there's turnover in the employment, right?

16:29 And so, and so it's a, it's a conversation that we're having all the time. But I do believe we've made a lot of strides, and particularly now that, you know, Utah's decriminalized, then that can't be the excuse that people use to hold on to their prejudice. Gotcha, gotcha. You know that thing about the doctor, like I get nervous going to the doctor because quite frankly, when they do the blood work and like, hey, fatty, we found the problem. That's the six cheeseburger you've had today, right? That's enough to to worry me, right? I can't imagine if someone was like trying to unpack who I am at the core, right? That would be enough to be like, I'm out, right? Like you can take your white lab coat and put it somewhere else because I'm out.

17:15 We. Use better language than I do, right? Well, that's only because I'm on the air, but yeah, it it creates less editing if I kind of do some self censoring here. So what? What would you say is the biggest challenge you face today? Today, I would say that the demand for our services outstrips our our funding. And because we navigate borders, you know, we navigate state borders, we navigate international borders. Funding's always an issue. And so in the state of Utah, to their credit, the state of Utah has been incredible to fund programs and to make sure we have resources.

18:00 It seems like if I go to the state for anything and say, hey, here's a need that they will figure out a way to, to get me the funding I need to take care of that. Now then the state of Arizona, it's been the opposite. We've served more than 900 citizens of Arizona with 0 funding from the state. And so, and so that's a huge challenge for us and trying to, you know, cobble together pennies here and dollars there to, to get people mental health services. And, and right now mental health services is, is a huge, huge part of, of our work. I would say, you know what, we know, particularly with the FLDS population that the structure dissolved.

18:42 People were taken away from their families, people were taken away from their communities. And so the belonging needs, the identity needs just got destroyed. And that has a huge toll on people. And so right now in the FLDS, we have an A suicide rate that's 960% higher than the national severe benchmark. We have a suicide, Oh, I don't know, sometimes it's a couple of times a month, sometimes it's once a month, but I don't know that there's any family that's not been touched by suicide. And then of course that creates a lot of needs on its own too. We have a lot of ambiguous loss, a lot of non death loss, a lot of, you know, loss by death and, and so mental health services is huge.

19:23 And so for people who are not citizens of Utah, I don't have money except in private fundraising to actually provide those services. Gotcha. When, when this all comes about right where, where someone decides, you know what, it's it's time for me to, to get out of here. What does that process look like? Right. I, I, I would like to talk about it in Utah and then maybe different borders and that sort of thing. Now there may be some stuff and I completely understand that you can't tell me if it's operational kind of stuff. I get that. But but what can you share? How does this process work? So one of the things that I mean, I, I always knew it, but I just get reminded every single day and that is every person is so different.

20:14 And so we have to be able to meet people wherever and however they walk in the door, right? And so, and so everybody presents with different needs and different ideas. So, but just in general, you know, if somebody decides that they need help, they need to get out of a violent situation, they want to leave, you know, the FLDS or some other group, Samuel Bateman group, that's become very pathological. Then we just have a phone number or we have a website. We just encourage people to call our number and ask for an intake because at intake we can just find out everything they might need and, and just start providing inputs. Of course, safety's always 1st. And so if somebody comes and they're in danger, we're going to focus on that before we focus on, oh, let's get you into school, Let's get you moved to, you know, wherever your family is in Idaho, whatever it's, it's safety needs 1st. And so we always triage, obviously. And then, and then find out what their goals are, what they want, if they want to, to move, if they wanted to get into housing, if they want mental health services, education, whatever that looks like.

21:20 And many, many, sometimes, you know, people come in the door. If you know anything about trauma informed care, somebody that's been through a lot, you know, of, of trauma of, of non death loss, all those kinds of things. It's, it's can be really difficult to access the, the thinking centers of the brain because you're in fight or flight, right? Your, your amygdala has taken over and you're on high alert. And so, and so coming in the door, first of all, that takes a lot of courage. And there's always so much, I mean, just I, I celebrate so much anybody that asks for help. And so, and so just getting, getting someone into a very calm place. You know, we do, we do like the tapping. We do things that help calm the, the, what's it called the limbic system so that, so that the thinking centers can come online and then we start making decisions.

22:06 But we don't ask people to make decisions when they come in, if they're in, if they're in full on flight, It's just a matter of safety. We make sure they feel safe. And then we make sure that the, you know, we start addressing things as we can. So being trauma informed and having really good evidence based programs is, is something that I'm very, very proud of with our organization. So yeah, it's just, it's just a matter of either walking in the door, making the phone call, getting online and saying I need help. But more than anything else, we don't have people coming in just cold. Mostly it's people getting referrals from other clients, from other family members saying, hey, cherish families help me a lot. You really ought to call them because that that, that learned trust, that that conferred trust. It's a big deal.

22:53 We are, we are a population of people who didn't know who we could trust, didn't know where we were going to be safe. And so if somebody says to you that doctor is a good doctor, he treats the plagues well, we're going to go to that doctor, he's going to get overwhelmed. There's a dentist here in Saint George that gets everybody because he got the, he got the reputation that he was going to treat people with respect. So everybody goes to him literally. And so it's, it's the same thing, you know, with us, it's, it's a conferred respect that we treated people well, made sure that they got what they asked for in a way that they asked for it. And so it's always, it's the vast majority are referrals of people walking in the door. Wow. What I want to go back to to the mental health thing, because I do think that that's really important when when we start looking at at that sort of thing, you said it's hard to get services for that.

23:49 Is that due to funding? Is that due to the availability of qualified counselors? What? What? What are the barriers there? So the funding, what I'm talking about, the funding for Arizona citizens, it's, it's really about funding. Now if, if somebody's on Medicaid or has insurance, we can get them connected with, with a counselor that we have vetted and they've, they've gone through the cultural sensitivity training. We will not refer to anyone who who has not proven that they could be culturally sensitive. And so it's really the uninsured people who are either falling through the cracks or don't dare apply for Medicaid or something like that because, you know, history.

24:31 So those are the ones that we, we have a really hard time finding. And there's also a huge lack of, of qualified mental health providers just right now across the United States, across the board. You know, everybody's, everybody's always looking for them. But we do have on staff right now. We have 3 therapists that we have employed and whenever they have an opening we're we're fitting people in with them. Wow. Well. Funding, yeah, funding is, is always, always the question. No to you kids going to college, you may want to think about switching your major. Right, They can pretty much write their own checks, right? Now, right, it sounds like it, it sounds like it.

25:12 So I I got another question right? And this is something that has has really been at the forefront of my mind, especially since starting to do the podcast. And that is what's I think for a lot of us. We thought, OK, Warren Jeffs is in jail. The FLDS are going to get cleaned up. Is that what you're seeing? What's what's going on down there now? Well, I mean, yes and no and, and you know, it's, it's, there's never a simple answer to anything when it comes to the FLDS because there it's made-up of what, 10,000 individuals? The, the yes part of it is that since Warren Jeffs was imprisoned, the attrition rate is, is hovering around 90%. Like as far as people who actually follow Warren Jeffs or his acolytes, it's about a tenth of the number of people who used to.

26:08 So, you know, we think there are maybe 1500 people who are still trying to follow him and everybody else has kind of fallen away. Maybe, you know, found other groups to join or something like that. And so Warren doesn't have access to harm the number of people that he did. Now that's a good thing, and it creates other problems because when? People. Well, I mean, yeah, it gives rise to somebody like Samuel Bateman, right? But but the other problem is that when people suddenly have, you know, that the loss of community and family and structure and all of the things that we had, then there's a lot of mental health issues around that. There's a lack of belonging, which drives the suicide rate.

26:51 There's a, there's a lack of structure in a lot of things. And so sometimes I see like parents who haven't had their kids, Warner Jeffs took them away from them and then they went and got them back. But when they were taken away, they were 6-7 years old. But when they got them back, they were 1314. So they didn't get an opportunity to raise those kids. And now they don't know how to parent either. And so they want to just be friends with their kids. They want to, you know, let's go smoke marijuana together so they can kind of win back that love. And so, so all of the, the lack of structure creates more need, right? It's not like Warren Jeffs is gone and now everybody's happy, healthy and safe. That's not, that's not true. Now we're dealing with the fallout of just the destruction of the community and and the the culture. Wow.

27:40 You know, you, you raise, you raise some interesting points there, right? Because anytime you leave a structure, whether you realize it or not, you look, I'm a pretty independently minded guy, right? Like Mormonism in some ways, especially when I joined the LDS church, seemed pretty counterintuitive, right? I'm not a fan of hierarchy. I tend to be a little, you know, look, I named the podcast What I Did for a reason, right? It wasn't, it wasn't my happenstance. And so coming into Mormonism, you know, into the LDS church, right? And I don't, I'm not trying to say the LDS church was bad in that sense, right?

28:21 It really wasn't. But it was still very hierarchy oriented, right? Oh yeah. And then when I left, it was kind of like, well, what do I do now, right? Like all of a sudden? And for a guy that's as independently minded as I am, right? And it's like, I thought I could just walk out and be like, OK, I don't need anybody. Well, that wasn't the case, right? Because quite frankly, I still believe in Mormonism, right? And certainly there are independents that make that work. But I think we're silly if we say we all don't need community in one sense or another, right? And also, if you're you're really following what Joseph was about, it's about the sense of community, right?

29:04 Zion, right? And you can build that. You can, you can have a Zion type family, but you can't have that without other people. So this idea that that you can just kind of be totally ruggedly individual. Some guys pull it off, right? But the vast majority, I think we recognize we need that. And So what kind of tools do you give folks who are coming out of that where they find a structure again, right? That's got to be huge, right? Because whether we like it or not, we're all subject, I think, to a certain amount of structure being somewhat comforting, right? I, I go back to the normalcy bias, right? Because I'm a nerd and I don't sleep a whole lot. I read a lot and I read a book about the normalcy bias and it used people in 9/11, right?

29:54 When those, when those planes hit, some people stopped, turned around, went back upstairs to turn off their computer, right? But, but that's your brains coping mechanism for anything that is truly traumatic and out of the structure. So, so how, how is it that you guys are able to provide some of that structure to folks who need that in order to just get their bearings? Because I've also seen people when they do leave religion, any religion, it's like, well, I guess I'm not part of a religion anymore. I guess I can go do cocaine, right? And it's like, whoa, slow down, bro. Right. Like going with the. Baby out with the bathwater. Yeah, right. I've seen it. Yeah, yeah.

30:34 And and that was never a thing for me because I kind of came from that kind of background and growing up. And so I knew I didn't want to go back there. But for folks who haven't really experienced any of that, I mean, how do you kind of keep them safe, right? I mean, there's got to kind of save them from the cells. I know that might sound kind of bad on the surface, but. Yeah, we, I mean, we, we try not to use the rescue or save language because I think it's inherently disempowering. But you know, I mean, you're, you're absolutely right about, about the human need for structure and belonging like that, that community. We, you know, according to Maslow, that the need to belong is the number one human psychological need. And, you know, second only to safety, breathing, eating water, right.

31:19 So, so that the social animal part is, is really kind of a higher function. I think it's Margaret Mead said she could tell when civilization started to really take off and when people were safe or because they were together. It's because you could find, you know, broken femurs that had healed instead of just leaving somebody behind to die. They kept them with them long enough to you heal and they could, they could be part of the the community, right? And so that's how I look at this is this kind of an anthropological study of if we are bringing along in our community, if we're keeping people and helping them find safety and, and belonging, even though they might have higher needs, that means we are higher functioning.

32:04 So one of the things we've done for, you know, for FLDS refugees particularly is just trying to recreate community in a different way. So in, in Short Creek, Colorado City and Hilldale, for example, we've we're completely remaking the town now. Both city councils are completely out of the control of the church. They're elected by the residents and we're building a Community Center, we're building parks and trails and rec centers and, and we're creating all of these community events like we used to have, but but not a church directed program, right? They are all, they're all civic directed. So we're bringing back art, we're bringing back music and performance and all of those kinds of things in an effort to help people reconnect in a way, however they want, in a way that they don't have to fit somebody's version of what God wants them to look at right before they're allowed to participate. So and, and to cherish families in both locations, we're providing classes, we do art therapy, we do, you know, book clubs and, and different things like that. So, so we're helping people connect to social opportunities in a really non threatening and inviting way to help people rebuild those ties.

33:22 And, and because we don't take a position on religion and polygamy and all that, we, we don't provide church opportunities because we feel like, you know, that's, that's really invasive, particularly for somebody who's receiving services and they start to feel like it, oh, is that a requirement for me to receive services? Do I need to go back to church? And so we're really, really careful not to offer any religious kinds of, of, of social offerings. But we do, you know, first Christmas and, and letting you know, a Christmas craft event where all the kids come and make an ornament and decorate cookies and all those things. And we're having a just huge turn out. I think our last Christmas craft event had, if I remember right, they said 600 people come in.

34:02 So, so we know that attending to social needs is really, really critical to healing this population. And that's got to take a toll on your resources as well, right? I mean, you can't put on some of those things without a little bit of Jack, right? To, to spread around and, and pay for that stuff. I'm thinking like, that's a lot of canvas, right? For the art thing, right? Yeah. Yeah, a lot of paint. So as as you how so you've been at this since 2004 now, right. Is that kind of what I'm understanding kind of it? It started very informal with folks on your couch. Yeah, in a, in a grassroots way. And Elena was the same.

34:45 And Elena was never part of the FLDS. They, they came from the independent, you know, kind of expression. But that was the same thing was happening to them because they had family who were part of Shore Creek. And so people were showing up and asking them for help. So we were, yes, independently doing grassroots social work that we really didn't, we weren't equipped for, let me just put it that way. Yep Yep, as you've done this now for 20 years now right what what do you think some of your biggest successes have been and some of some of your worst heart breaks 'cause I think it's important to point those out because we look, we all want a happy ending, right? We all want that feel good story at the end of the movie, but sometimes that doesn't always work out. And and I think if there's people who feel called to this, I feel like that that has to be on the table to know that you know what, this isn't always going to go the way you want it to go.

35:45 What what have been some of your experiences there, without naming names or or giving away anything? Well, I'm going to start with with my biggest heart breaks because I really, really want to end on there. I want to finish up this with the with the happy ones. My biggest heart breaks. I don't know that I'm ever going to get over this. Anytime someone dies by suicide, I think I failed them because I didn't get the resources to them that they needed and and I know in my brain that it's not my fault but I can't I convince my heart.

36:39 Oh man, so. Want more from the Mormon Renegade podcast? Head over to the Mormon Renegade Rumble page to see all the videos from the podcast and the fundamental news program for. Free. Still not enough? Then join the Mormon Renegade Locals page by clicking the red join button and for $5.00 a month you can have access to podcast transcripts, Renegade exclusives, as well as weekly live stream show with the host Dave Sanders. Click the link in this episode's show notes today. Because I didn't get the resources to them that they needed.

37:23 And and I know in my brain that it's not my fault, but I can't. I can Vince my heart. Oh man. So. So that's always occupies a lot of my time thinking about how to make sure that we're getting the resources and getting the information out there, which honestly, thank you. What just hopefully by being on this podcast, we can let people know the resources are out there and they don't have to resort to that because getting the outreach to the people who need it, you know, sometimes we just don't know where to look. They're scattered to the four winds and, and so, and so if, if they're completely alone and living in, you know, Vermont, we don't know where they are or how to reach them. And so and so learning how to reach people is a, is a big part of what we try to do.

38:32 Now I'm going to move on to the happy things. It's for me understanding that we are changing the trajectory for future generations is such a huge, huge piece of what keeps me going. We are playing the long game. We're not here to just, you know, be a flash in the pan and get somebody some fancy outfit. And then we think we've saved them and we shove them off. We follow families for as long as they want to be followed. And, and for me, you know, if we got a mom, a single mom that comes to us with five kids and the oldest ones are not in school because they have to stay home and babysit so that the mom can work and support the family.

39:12 If we get that child back in school and get them the resources we need and we make sure they get the, you know, mental health services and the food and all that, I know that in 20 years we're going to have an amazing member of society. And for me, that is a huge, huge thing to look forward to whenever I have somebody come up to me and say, I, and this actually happened. And I, I don't even know her name, so I don't know. I hope I'm not outing her. But this girl came up to me at the, at the Independence Day celebration in Colorado City two years ago. And she said, Hey, my mom said to come and find you. She said, I have to thank you. And I said thank me for what she said. Well, now I live in this other state. She named it.

39:54 And I just graduated with a construction management degree and I'm making a lot of money and I just have a great life. I'm like, that is such great news. I am so happy to hear that. And I didn't even know who she was. But it was her mom got the help she needed so that this girl could go and, and take ownership of her life. And those kinds of stories really are what keep me, you know, the 1/2 of me that's that's over crying in the corner about suicide. And the other half of me is celebrating because I know that we have changed the future for not just this mom and then her daughter, but also her children and and going forward. Yeah, I, you know, I, I'll be honest, as you were talking there, one of the things, especially as you were talking about some of the things that that you think you, that you, that we both wish things would have went differently was just that scene out of Schindler's List when he's like, if I did just done this or this or this. And I'll say this perspective is never had in the moment. Surely it's always something you have to look back on, right? That's right.

41:04 The, the, it's horrible. This is, this is how you know how flawed I am. Then you reminded me of a different movie, which was which was Gladiator. There's a great line where he says what we do here ripples through eternity. Now, whether you're a believer in, in the spiritual or God or whatever or not, that's a true principle, right? Because that will be that girl's kids and her kids and her grandchildren and her great grandchildren. This is something that goes on forever. This is something that absolutely has generational type impacts on it.

41:51 Let let me ask you this, what can the fundamentalist community at large, and I'm not singling out anyone group or any one person, but but what can fundamentalist at large do to help push this forward? Because I'll be honest, I, I, we live in a unique time now where quite frankly, our lifestyle is kind of one of the most tamer ones out there now, right? Like. Isn't that the truth? Like, like I Remember Me and my and again, I'm very libertarian in my approach, right? I'm like, whatever you do, you do that. You do you, bro. It's between you, your God, lack of God, whatever you do you right. But I remember I was sitting on the couch with with both the girls during June back in 2023.

42:36 And I just went. You remember when we were the strangest thing out there? Like times have changed, right? And one of the things that that I think is incumbent upon us now is that we have to kind of work to move past these stereotypes that, quite frankly, we allowed to be heaped on us, right? We didn't, we didn't tell our own story. And, and I think this is part of of how we got here. But I think a good part of that is trying to to point out abuse when it does happen, right? You never want to be freewheeling with with that word, right? There's a difference between domestic disharmony and then real abuse, right? But we have to point that out when it happens. And we have to say that's not OK. That's not OK from from our religious perspective, right? There is nothing I read from Joseph or Brigham that they would have been cool with abusing your spouse or your children.

43:36 Yeah. So we have to point that out. We have to grow a backbone I think a little bit for at times and just be willing to call it out. And so organizations like yours, I think are leading the way in that. And So what could the fundamentalist community at large do to help support you guys, to help help with with on the ground needs, those sorts of things? OK, so there's a lot in there. Let me see if I can remember everything. Let me, let me just go back and just start by saying I, I, I don't like to blame the victim, right? I, I know that there's been a lot of, of stigma and prejudice heat on fundamentalist that is unfair.

44:19 So, so there's been this, the, the backlash was, well, let's just go underground. Let's not, let's not talk about ourselves and all of that. And I understand, I understand that impulse and I, you know, particularly when, you know, it was a felony to do, to live your religion. And so for me, I'm not demonizing people for having done that, but I do want people to really start thinking about what an amazing opportunity we have right now. We're like, we're at a crossroads and and we can't come back and do different right? Right now. If the various states start to see fundamentalists say, no, we don't do that here, you are going to get turned in for this.

45:04 No, you're not allowed to do that. You're going to get turned in then then there's going to be a sea change. And right now is the opportunity to do this. We start being a lot more open and transparent about we are, we are taking care of of abusers. We are not allowing allowing sexual assault or underage sexual, you know, rape in our communities. You will be ostracized then. And knowing that you're not, you know, I'm not going to be arrested as a felon because I'm a fundamentalist because I reported, you know, somebody who's doing this. This is the opportunity. And so and so it's, it's going to be a little bit hard, I think for people who are so entrenched in the, we don't report because, you know, when I left, I was a felony.

45:50 And so if I had reported abuse against my children, I could have had them taken from me, right? That's not the case anymore. But sometimes it takes some time for that to sink in. But I think that leaders can really step up and say, look, we need to be able to do this. We need to, to take care of our children. We need to put our our money where our mouth is and we need to help victims get services. So, so I will say that there is one of the groups, I'm not, I'm not going to name anybody who has actually been telling their their adherence report that crime, get that help, who have been having us come in and do trainings, which I think is huge. You know, if I start to see a trajectory shift like that, then then I can have a lot of respect.

46:35 I'm like, OK, you really are following the teachings that you profess to believe in, right? So, so that's one part of it. This is a really good opportunity. Another part is, you know, call and find out what services are available for you and your family, because there's probably something that we can help with that's going to strengthen families and, and help families be on their feet and, and have what they need. And then the other two is, is, you know, support financially. This, this is our target population. This is the only people we help. And so I don't, I don't know who the wealthy fundamental, I mean, I know who some of the wealthy fundamentalists are. But but but one thing that's happened, I think well, and this is just my opinion and maybe I shouldn't say this.

47:20 Oh no, I make a living out of that. You're fine. I actually, I don't make a living out of that. I make a living out of working and I do this as a full time hobby. But anyway, no, it's fine. You're you're totally good here to do that. OK, well, I mean, one of the things that's happened is, you know, if if a woman comes and says I no longer want to be part of that and we facilitate her leaving, then we get a really bad reputation as the divorce agency. And you shouldn't, you shouldn't help women leave. And I'm like, why would you want to force someone to stay that doesn't track, that doesn't track. But the then then, you know, on the other side of it, we get tons of criticism because for, for other people who are anti polygamy, the fact that we will not decry the religion. We're told you force women to go back into polygamy and you're a polygamy lover.

48:08 And you, you know, you're upholding polygamy. And, and the other side is you guys hate polygamy and you're, you're the divorce agency. And I'm like I'm I'm not. Usually that means you're on the right track, right? If both extremes don't like you. It's been my experience, you're probably right where you want to be. My grandfather, who who flew planes in Korea said you're you're not over the target if you're not taking flak. If you're not receiving flak, that's right. And, and so I tend to look at that like when, when those times happen to me, I tend to be like, I'm over the target, right? I've done something to irritate somebody that didn't want light shone or whatever. And so I'm, I'm, I'm very cognizant of that. Yeah.

48:57 How do you work past that with certain certain fundamentalists, right? Certain groups, individuals, whatever. How do you get past that idea of, gosh, they're just here to break up your family, That's what they're about? Well, I, we, we don't spend a lot of time trying to court people's good opinion. I mean, we're too busy in the 1st place. We, we let our work speak for itself. I think we've done enough. We were very, very active in the decriminalization. We have helped a lot of plural families receive mental health counseling to stay together because that was their stated goal, right? And so and so for us, it's like if, if we're strengthening families, if people are getting what they need so that they can be strong, they can stand on their own 2 feet.

49:43 That's, that's my record. And I don't need to go and, and try to make change somebody's opinion about me. If they don't like me, I just, it's, that's not my job. My mom used to tell me all the time other people's opinion of me is not my business. Right, right. No, absolutely that it. I think you're right though. You, you just got to let the work speak for itself, right? And look, I don't have just anybody on, right? When Joshua brought brought this up, I was like, OK, let's do some homework first, right? And then as I did it, I was like, Oh yeah, no, this is good stuff. And and so you, you do have to let the work speak for itself.

50:26 I want to go back to the decriminalization thing. Was that a debate that was everybody in the organization on board with that decision to to support that bill as much as you guys did? I assume, I assume everybody was because nobody in our organization works with people unless they understand the history and fairs and barriers. And when you know that the, the felony status is one of the big, big barriers for people receiving services, you have to be in support of that. I didn't hear anyone say they were not. And and obviously everyone in leadership was a was in support of that.

51:10 And I, and I think it surprises a lot of people for, for me specifically because I'm, I'm quite a contradictory person. I'm a, I'm a feminist and all of this stuff. I, I'm not a fan of polygamy and I'm not a fan of monogamy either. I think that there's a lot of things in even the marriage, you know, vows that are, that are harmful to women. There's a lot of things in our expectations and structures in this country that are inherently, you know, create second class citizens out of women. I mean, the marriage vow, who gives this woman? It's like, who's chattelish today, right? I have a problem with that, but I don't have a problem with somebody else deciding they want to be married. I don't have a problem with somebody else deciding that they want to be a fundamentalist.

51:51 Like that's not my business. You know, my business is how I want to order my life. And so because people know that that's how I feel, then they're like, why are you trying to decriminalize polygamy? I'm like, because having women live in the shadows is so much more disempowering than it, you know, anything else. If a woman got married and had to live underground so that she was vulnerable to exploitation at every turn, I would be, I would be, you know, fighting to legalize marriage. For me, it's like, do do the least harm, do harm reduction. What is it that's forcing people to be in a place where they don't have choices?

52:34 And so and so, yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm quite a contradictory person that way. But, and I, it's the same thing too. Even even with religion, you know, I don't feel like I'm upholding a religious structure. I had, I think I'm upholding people's rights as adults to make choices and bringing them out of the shadows so that they had access to medical care and education and whatever it is they need to live healthy, productive lives. So, and I'll, and I'll just even go back to the, you know, when you, you said something about you don't know what my religion is. And the truth is, you know, once, once I left the FLDS, I, I wanted to be an atheist. I was like, I don't believe any of this.

53:15 I'm, I'm rejecting all of this. And so I just started living my life as, you know, I'm going to do this work because it's, it calls to me. But one of the things that I've realized is that I am my, my spirituality is that I know that I'm doing what I came here to do because I can't get out of it. I've tried. That's so interesting from someone who wanted to be an atheist right that that place look, you're talking to the most reluctant of Mormons. Let me get that out of the way right. Like I remember complaining after I got off my knees like I don't want to be a Mormon. Those guys are weird.

53:57 Little did I know in 20 some years I would go way weird. But I mean, in that moment, in that moment, yeah, no. So I kind of get what you're talking about there, right? That's that's an interesting place for you to be, right to, to be like, I want to be an atheist. But the same time, there seems to be something kind of bigger here that's keeping me in this. Yeah, yeah. And that's where that's really where I've arrived. I've done a ton of meditation, I've done a ton of inner work. And, and one of the things that that I've arrived at is first of all, I don't know. I don't think hardly anybody know. I don't think really anybody knows what's after this. But there is to me with all the meditation, with everything I've done, I at least have the humility to say, I don't know what it is.

54:44 And I believe there's something, some intelligence, something I've encountered meditation. I, I'm willing to say that and to say, I don't know what it is. And to be OK with not knowing. That's just, that's just where I'm at. But, but the thing that I'm very, very clear about is I was born to do this and I will do it. I've, I've been court ordered to some things that I absolutely refuse to do. And so it's just the more I do it and the more things open up and the pathway is so clear. I know I'm doing what I came here to do. And I just tell people, I tell all the time people. I, I just, you know, if that's not good enough for God, then I'll, I guess I'll go to hell, but I'm not going to be part of an organized religion again. But I do know This is why I was born. Sure, sure.

55:33 When you guys were working so hard to get plural marriage decriminalized in Utah. I've talked to Christina Rosetti a little bit about this on the 1st podcast I did with her. What were some of your biggest push backs you guys got from that? Because that's something that I I was very interested in looking at. Well, it, I mean, first of all, you know, the Mormon Church spent, oh, it's been, oh, about 100 years now, very carefully separating themselves from that saying that's not us, we are not that we are no longer right. And so and so to have fundamentalists in the state of Utah has been just a thorn in the side of the church because that keeps bringing up that history that they just really want to disown and not and not embrace. And so and so for me and on all these years working with the legislature and some of the really frankly counterproductive thing bills that they passed, I knew, I knew it was a long shot, but but there had been several people who had been working on it for for five years or more just like saying, hey, this is, this is really not logical.

56:47 This is really having bad outcomes. This is really causing a lot of harm. And so and so it's finally started to get some traction. But in Utah, this is just kind of a well kept secret. If if the church doesn't like something, they can kind of kill it. A bill in the legislature, they can just kind of tell their members that's not good, don't vote for that. And, and it will die. And, and maybe that's having less and less of an impact now, but for years that's how it's been. But, but I think, you know, when, when it finally started to become a very serious topic of conversation, it was, it was now she's Lieutenant Governor Henderson now, at the time she was in the Senate, she started taking this on and being very serious about it. Now she's a member of the LDS Church. And so you have to know that takes a lot of courage. But what she did was take find all of the data. She found facts data, just like all of the things and build them up and created a case that was really, really incredible. She also had a lot of gravitas in and, you know, all of her colleagues really respected her, so they were willing to listen to her.

57:51 The biggest push back I got was, you know, people were just like polygamy's bad and wrong and that's all they can think about. And so that's, that's it. And so that was, that was a big push back. There really wasn't any rational push back against it. I think Lieutenant Governor Henderson really took care of her colleagues as far as their concerns and the things that they brought up. The the other push back that I got and that I dealt with the most was really like the anti polygamy evangelicals out there. That or you know, it's evil because the religion is evil and and kept, you know, a false equivocation of polygamy is abuse. If you have somebody who's living polygamy and they abuse, it's because of the polygamy and not because it's an abuser. And, and so those are the conversations that, you know, you can, you can give facts, you can, you can help disabuse all that.

58:45 But anybody who's in this evangelical mindset, they're not willing to have their minds changed. But it didn't. It turned out that it didn't matter because the bill passed. What? What do you think it was? Do you think it was was Deidre Henderson's? And shout out to her, by the way, 'cause I know she was very instrumental in that, that whole thing. And as you said it, that that took an extreme amount of courage to buck the trend, so to speak, especially, you know, your, your church home, the, the whole ball of wax. But was there, was there anything else that you feel like was really instrumental in getting this finished up 'cause like it like it was, it was, it was. So it changed the entire landscape of what it meant to be a polygamist in Utah.

59:37 I remember when that passed and I'm like, I'll be damned, look at that. I was, I was really kind of taken aback. I thought, there's no way this is getting done. And I watched very closely. I didn't have the podcast in those days, but I was watching really closely. What else? Along with Deidre, and because I don't want to understate what she did, what else do you think really helped push that forward? Because it's a sea change, right? Right. And, and there had to be before that, there had to be people who were publicly polygamous, right? So Sister Wives, I think the show really helped people kind of get more proximate with with those weird polygamists, right?

1:00:25 And so they were, they were in their lives. They're realizing they're actual just human beings that have needs and, you know, all the same kinds of things that we do. And so, so that living publicly really helped. I think the Darter's my Three Wives book really helped. Anytime people are coming out and saying, hey, we're humans, we're humans. Let's have a conversation that makes a huge, huge difference. I, I preach this all the time with, you know, both sides of the political aisle. It's like, have a conversation with people on the other side conversations. Proximity changes everything. And so I, I really think that, you know, those brave fundamentalists who are willing to just come out and say, hey, we're just people and we refuse to be in the shadow anymore.

1:01:10 That had a huge change again, which is why I'm coming back to this go report crimes because that's going to make a huge difference. So so that really, really helped. And then Deidre Henderson was willing to go drove her all over the state, go into people's homes and have those conversations and find out people's experiences being, you know, born in the back shed because they couldn't go to see the doctor. You know, all, all of the things. She heard everybody's stories and it made a massive difference. She started telling the stories and, and it changed lives. It changed minds. And so, you know, I'm, I'm all for this, the transparency, the being human. It was a big deal.

1:01:52 I, I also want to give a shout out to Larry Snow, who was, he's no longer in the Legislature, but he he was in the House and, and was the representative who was really in charge of all the criminal justice reform. And I asked him, I asked him to Co sponsor the bill with with the Senator Henderson. And he laughed. He laughed out loud. He was like now, now what? And then he stopped. He's like, oh, you're serious Because he because he knew, you know, this is a big lift. But I said, just please don't answer me right now, but think about it. And he did. He went away and thought about it and he prayed about it. And he came back and said, I have prayed and I am satisfied that this is the right thing to do and I'm going to do it. And so again, it takes people with real courage, real leadership to look at the real facts and go get asked all of the years of stories and stigma and, and actually do the right thing.

1:02:49 And I, I see that happen. I saw that happen with this. And some of the things the Legislature has done has been really great in that way. Nice. You talked about data that that that that Henderson went out and just compiled that data. Was there anything in that data that surprised you? No. OK, Like I said, the fundamentals know everything. There are no secrets from the fundamentalists. OK, All right. I didn't. What kind of data was it? I was interested about that. What, what kind of data was it? Was this religious data? What, what? What are we looking at? So we're talking, we're talking numbers, we're talking the like the high number of people who, who didn't dare, like have access to graduating from high school or didn't have access to college. The vast number of people who have, you know, less, less access to medical care and, and have to do, you know, like home births and things like that because they weren't willing to go to the doctor or the hospital. We're talking about, oh, people who were born in hiding and who ended up with last names that were different from their parents.

1:03:59 Just all of those kinds of stories and, and barriers. She talked to a lot of people in in Short Creek, like the number of people, offspring of people who were taken away from their parents in the 1953 raid and the impact that had on their lives and the lack of opportunity that that came out of that. So just, you know, real hard facts that that the state hasn't really confronted up to this point. Right. You know, I think you hit on another important, an important piece of this, which is just kind of showing our humanity, right? And again, we got to be better about telling our own stories or else someone else is going to frame it for us and, and showing that humanity. I got a good friend, probably my best friend outside of of, of Amber and Tanya.

1:04:52 And he's, he's not a Mormon at all either, right? He, he wasn't brought up in it or anything. And when, when I became a fundamentalist and after, after Tanya joined the family, he, he corned me once we were out to lunch. He's like, OK, man, what's it like? I'm like, what? He's like, I knew what he meant, but I wanted him to say the words because I'm kind of an A hole that way. I'm like what's what's what's what's what's like He's like, you know, having two wives. I'm like, oh, you want The Dirty secrets? He's like, yeah, it's like, OK, I'm going to give them to you. It's like being married, but twice, right? And then just let it, left it alone and, and he just, he, he was totally let down, right?

1:05:40 And I'm like, look, dude, it's really not that much different than you or your wife, right? It's just another relationship that needs to be fostered, nurtured and, and taken care of. But in that moment, I could see the light bulb go off. And there was later a scenario where he kind of came to my defense, right? Because he was like, no, he's, he's just another guy, right? He just lives a little bit differently. And I think we've got to get to that point right where where we show our humanity where we're willing to to just be like, Nope, we're just people too. Some of us are really cool and some of us stink on ice. It's a cross sector of humanity and every. Time you have a cross sector of humanity, you have really, really amazing people you have some really, really crappy people it doesn't matter where you slice this pie.

1:06:24 And so until fundamentalists are willing to get out there and be acknowledged as humans, then they're always going to be going to be defined by the ones that are in the news, which are the really, really bad ones, right. So, you know, for me, it's just, it's the same way, I think. I think because I was a woman and I escaped the FLDS that everybody thought I was going to go and just had do this big expose on, you know, on all the sex and the sex cult and everything. And, and I think I let a lot of people down by saying men have huge responsibility. It's not all about sex. In fact, if anything, they probably have less sex than you do because there's, there's a religious responsibility with everything, everything you do, There's, there's a responsibility to your God, to your family, to, you know, your duties. There's all of these things that factor in and, and not only that, but 99% of us are born into it, right? So, so it's not like all of these thousands of men woke up one day and said, that looks like I get to have a lot of sex. So they go become fundamentalists. These are people who are raised up in this high, high responsibility, high demand gospel. And and so it's not, you know, everybody's like, well, did you guys have like threesome and stuff on me? I didn't even know what that was when I was in that. Like it literally was not part of our world. So, so I think that it's really important. Again, you know, I love that you're doing this podcast and I think it's really important.

1:07:55 The fundamentalist come out and humanize the rest of us. I still say us, even though I'm no longer a fundamentalist, but the the rest of us, right? The rest of us need to be known in in society, not just the ones that are out there committing the crimes. Absolutely, Absolutely. SO11 last question, if, if do you guys like take volunteers to be boots on the ground, those sorts of things, would fundamentalists be welcome to do that? What, what's the process for doing that? What can we do to help this out? Yes, absolutely, in fact. We, I mean, I guess I can name them 'cause they're great.

1:08:38 The the missionaries from the I think it's called the work, the work of God in that's located in Centennial Park. We we have missionaries from them come all the time help us with with all kinds of things. Yeah, we, we right now are building a legit a therapy garden, a big therapy garden on our building in Colorado City. We could use help with, we just acquired a new location in Alpine, UT that we could use help, you know, with all kinds of things. So yeah, I mean, volunteers are really helpful. We'd love to have volunteers who want to do, you know, the social kinds of things to provide, you know, peer peer, peer group kind of stuff. And of course, donations.

1:09:22 Donations are always lovely, OK, But we're we're going to get to that. Yeah, yeah. So how if someone needs? Help. How do they find? You guys so they can call our main number. Which is on the website. I could recite it but I'll probably say it wrong. They could go to our website or, and, and just contact us through the website and ask for help or, or call any of our staff members if they have, you know, if they, if they have family members that have had help. But yeah, we're, I think, I think we're pretty responsive to people's needs. One of the things we'd. Really love to do. Is go wherever people are located. Like we've got people in Nevada and Colorado, we like to go to that location and go find out the other resources that are available to try to make them a lot more culturally appropriate and open to people. And then continue that that collaboration so that we're not the only resource for somebody who's living, you know, outside of outside of Utah.

1:10:20 So sure. And then for people who want to volunteer. Their time, how do they do go about doing that? I would go through the website as well. OK? And then donations I assume? Through the website as well. Yeah, we can do that or. Really. Anyway. And because you're a 5O1C3, that's all. Tax deductible too, right, That is yes, we give we have the tax deductible the. Receipts for that? Fantastic. Is there anything? You want to cover that? That I didn't cover. Well, I mean I you did. Cover this. But I think it bears repeating just, you know, people you let family members know who are struggling that that we're here and that we can offer help, you know, do do outreach to other people, check on people, see how people are doing. I think that, you know, with, with the pandemic and with our digital lives, we've become so much further, a further flung and, and we're not really taking care of each other that, that attending need of, of community and things like that. Just check on each other and if somebody's struggling, send them our way.

1:11:23 We, we don't want anybody to fall through the cracks. Fantastic. Awesome. Well, surely I think you guys are doing a great work. Thank you. I hope that that everyone. That listens. Go get involved in this. I've had, I've been blessed to meet a good portion of, of folks out there who are fundamentalists. And by and large, I, I, you know, 99% of them aren't into child brides. They're not into the nastiness that, that we've seen portrayed. And I'm not trying to defraud the government, not trying to defraud. The government I I know. Who you are, I've had the privilege and the opportunity to meet and yeah, let's get involved with this because it look at the end of the day, we have to be just we we need to start letting our light shine on that hill. We can't hide that that candle under a bushel any longer. And if you're looking for meaningful ways to serve, this is our own.

1:12:24 These are our own people. And it's time that we we kind of step up and and we help them out where we can. But surely this was awesome. I tell everyone this and I mean it 100%. You've been on here once you got standing invitation to come back on anytime you want. You just need to hit me up and I'll I'll make the time to get it done. So thanks again for coming on. I really, really appreciate it. Been my pleasure. All right, hang out for just five. Minutes. Bye everybody.

1:13:22 You're listening to the Mormon Renegade podcast.